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Member Indexers Meeting Place   Go to last post Go to last unread
#1 Posted : Thursday, August 3, 2023 10:26:16 AM(UTC)

Member indexers,


Tell us your indexing methods, plans, stories and so on.

#2 Posted : Thursday, August 3, 2023 11:23:54 AM(UTC)

Drom John posted some data about Drom John's past indexing.

#4 Posted : Thursday, August 3, 2023 12:49:08 PM(UTC)

Thank you for your indexing! I am also impressed with your statistics recordkeeping. I have member-indexed over 50 books, including over 8,100 recipes. For a while, I chose books based on their popularity, usually books with 15-30 members. Two of those titles now have about 220 members, although most have between 40-70 members. Sometimes I chose books because they were obscure (and thus unlikely to be indexed). The three books that only I owned (when I indexed them) now have 10, 11, and 14 members. I am gratified that so many people have better access to their recipe collections because of my indexing. My recent indexing has been based on "which unindexed book has the most recipes that I want to make in the next six months?" (The time period is helpful for seasonal titles.)

#6 Posted : Friday, August 4, 2023 5:33:35 AM(UTC)

I just went through my EYB emails to see how many books I've indexed over 11 years as a member and it looks like it's 19 (more than I thought).  I really feel for Sydney as I'm not sure my indexing skills have improved much over the years!  Originally I started indexing the gluten-free cookbooks in my collection as these were on very few bookshelves and were very unlikely to be indexed by EYB.  Then I had a break for a few years because of RSI.  


I took up indexing again when my husband and I were stuck for 15 months waiting for our US visas to be renewed; we weren't able to get back into the US while we waited, so we were bouncing round hotels and airbnbs in different countries.  My husband still had his job to do and I spent a lot of time indexing to keep me sane; I only had access to cookbooks on my Kindle so that decided what I indexed during that time.


The visa issue was resolved in 2019 and I've moved country twice since then, so I haven't indexed anything recently.  Now that we've retired I might just try to tackle the 13 books on my bookshelf that are unindexed. It would be lovely to get them all done.

#7 Posted : Friday, August 4, 2023 6:18:50 AM(UTC)

Drom John, with main point of recreated here, including an out of post order of a second point.


I would like thresholds for "never" ingredients. For one recipe in my most recent book, I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out whether to index cornflour. I decided against but recorded my indecision in Indexer Notes. 


I have often Binged whether an item was Vegan/Vegetarian. I think it would be nice to have an EYB document with an alphabetical list of items that have been discovered by us all as not Vegan, not Vegetarian.  Let's start with Worcestershire sauce and isinglass.

#9 Posted : Saturday, August 5, 2023 11:16:34 AM(UTC)

Dear Member Indexers


The EYB site is getting hit hard by search crawler bots who send thousands of requests per second. Our developers are working on ways to block them. Our apologies. We appreciate your patience as well as your hard work.


Best,
Jenny



#10 Posted : Sunday, August 6, 2023 1:18:14 PM(UTC)
Drom John (Shelmar),

The "never indexed" list is included in the "Store-cupboard Ingredients Table" at the beginning of the document. See Eat Your Books/Help/Indexing/Instructions & Lists/Store-cupboard Ingredients Table."

For vegan/vegetarian ingredients, the information is in the "Indexing Form Instructions" under the Nutrition heading (Eat Your Books/Help/Indexing/Instructions & Lists/Indexing Form Instruction). Also, I have often googled "Is XXXX vegan?" or "Is XXXX vegetarian?", especially when indexing a cookbook from a country/ethnicity I am unfamiliar with.

#8 Posted : Monday, August 7, 2023 11:51:32 AM(UTC)

Originally Posted by: Shelmar Go to Quoted Post
For the "never indexed" items, I'd like to know the line when "never" crosses to the "unusual' side. Many times salt has been an obvious crossover (ice cream)
Is this something new? I'm not aware that just because an ice cream recipe includes a little salt that you would index salt as an ingredient. I thought you would only index a store-cupboard ingredient when the quantity is over the threshhold or the ingredient is in the name of the recipe.

#11 Posted : Monday, August 7, 2023 1:27:12 PM(UTC)

whitewoods is correct - store-cupboard ingredients should only be added if mentioned in the recipe title or in excess of our thresholds as listed in the Store-cupboard Ingredients table.


I would be interested in member indexers opinion on a possible change of indexing rules regarding store-cupboard ingredients (sci). When we started EYB (we launched 14 years ago on August 1!) we excluded sci as we were keen to grow our database as quickly as possible and excluding sci allowed us to get a lot more cookbooks indexed. When we introduced member indexing in 2011 we kept the rules the same for MI as for pro indexers in order to have consistency. However in the last couple of years we have been using an indexing automation system (IAS) that we have developed ourselves to import data from blogs. These import all ingredient data - all ingredients and quantities.  So should we give MI the option of adding everything if they wish?


If you are curious about the ingredient quantities we are now storing for newly indexed blogs, we are not showing that yet on the site as there is not enough of it to be valuable. It is extremely unlikely we will ever be able to go back and add quantities for all cookbook and magazine indexes. However we could add quantities to all online recipes at some point which would make those recipes more useful for grocery shopping.

#13 Posted : Tuesday, August 8, 2023 3:17:56 PM(UTC)

Originally Posted by: Shelmar Go to Quoted Post
.
John (Shelmar) ... why did you delete all of your posts? I was just correcting you on a minor point, because I only had a few minutes to spare yesterday. However, I thought the original idea of this thread (a place for member indexers to get to know each other and chat) was an excellent one and was planning to contribute further tomorrow (which has now arrived). Well, I guess I'll talk a little about myself anyway--even if you have abandoned the conversation.


Oy, now I don't have your posts to refer to and respond to. Well, I seem to recall that you're a librarian by profession and that you were using spreadsheets to help manage the very large project--of indexing all of your wife's (Shelmar's) unindexed cookbooks. I thought all of that was excellent, and I had been doing something similiar (although I think not as advanced) to manage my own project of indexing all of my unindexed cookbooks on EYB. I don't have my spreadsheet in front of me and haven't used it in a while, but I recall that I had actually listed every title from my library and then had a column indicating whether or not it was indexed on EYB and then how many recipes in the book (for the unindexed titles as well as the indexed ones), and then for the books already indexed on EYB--whether or not the recipes have the page numbers--in case I would ever have time in the future to add those.


I started member indexing about a year or two before the pandemic began and later was able to enjoy having a little more free time to work on member indexing during the 3 months in 2020 when my weekly work hours were cut from 40 to 20. But I just really haven't been able to find the time since late 2020 when work picked up immensely, and I haven't really had any relief since then. I also got myself a roommate and took up another hobby--so that also leaves me with less time for member indexing at EYB, but I still hope to get back to it some day. I actually have two books in my library that are marked "indexing now" because I had virtually finished both of them but still was unable to find the time to go over them one last time before submitting them for Sydney. I feel a little guilty about that (one is on 21 bookshelves, and the other is on 26 bookshelves), but I still don't know when I'll get around to completing them.


I did, however, have a blast indexing the 36 titles that I did. Especially towards the end I started to focus on very small titles. Some of those had very few recipes in them: a book/pamphlet from Hawaii with only 21 recipes, a book about baking soda with 3 recipes, another pamphlet (with an ISBN however) on tofu that had 3 recipes in it, etc. But among the 36 titles I did, some had several hundred recipes in them ... one had over 500, but most had fewer than 100 I would say. I used to anxiously await the approval from Sydney, but I really used to look forward to her thorough emails filled with feedback. I loved getting the feedback from her. Of course, she always managed to catch at least a few things that had given me trouble, no matter how many titles I had indexed previously or how many times I checked each book before submitting.


Well, nothing else comes to mind at the moment--although I still wish that every EYB member would give a try--although perhaps a lot of people wouldn't have the patience for it and might not do a good job, as a result.

#14 Posted : Tuesday, August 8, 2023 3:47:10 PM(UTC)

Originally Posted by: Jane Go to Quoted Post
I would be interested in member indexers opinion on a possible change of indexing rules regarding store-cupboard ingredients (sci). When we started EYB (we launched 14 years ago on August 1!) we excluded sci as we were keen to grow our database as quickly as possible and excluding sci allowed us to get a lot more cookbooks indexed. When we introduced member indexing in 2011 we kept the rules the same for MI as for pro indexers in order to have consistency. However in the last couple of years we have been using an indexing automation system (IAS) that we have developed ourselves to import data from blogs. These import all ingredient data - all ingredients and quantities. So should we give MI the option of adding everything if they wish?
Hi, Jane. I think you've asked these questions before ... or, well, I know the issue of SCI is controversial, especially if people may want the ability to exclude SCI to which they may be allergic. I always thought excluding them was kind of silly and added so much additional complexity to the indexing process. It means that Sydney frequently has to question indexers ... is the quantity of such-and-such ingredient really over the threshhold in the table? But, then again, I wasn't around here at EYB's beginnings--so I don't really question the rules that were set in place at that time. I also don't have any issue with EYB changing the rules at any point, even if it means that old recipes will never be changed. I really don't expect to find that kind of consistency in a large database like EYB. I mean, if you changed the rule regarding page numbers and left most of the old recipes as is, I don't see why you can't change the rules regarding SCI.
That's interesting that you've managed to automate the blog indexing. Does that mean that you're still using professional indexers for the cookbooks though? And, if so, are they indexing the SCI now? If so, then, sure, the MI should follow suit (but, of course, I'm biased, as I always thought that leaving them out in the first place was rather silly.) Also, as other members have previously mentioned, what one cuisine considers to be "store-cupboard ingredients" can be quite different from what another cook of a different ethnicity keeps in their cupboard and considers to be basic.

#12 Posted : Wednesday, August 9, 2023 8:11:04 AM(UTC)

Originally Posted by: Jane Go to Quoted Post
I would be interested in member indexers opinion on a possible change of indexing rules regarding store-cupboard ingredients (sci). When we started EYB (we launched 14 years ago on August 1!) we excluded sci as we were keen to grow our database as quickly as possible and excluding sci allowed us to get a lot more cookbooks indexed. When we introduced member indexing in 2011 we kept the rules the same for MI as for pro indexers in order to have consistency.


I've only indexed a few cookbooks. For me, it would be a lot indexing would go much faster if I didn't have to keep looking at the thresholds for SCI. I also agree with whitewoods that what some people consider cupboard ingredients may be different than someone else.

#15 Posted : Wednesday, August 9, 2023 9:23:55 AM(UTC)

100% agree with what pitterpat4 said.

#16 Posted : Wednesday, August 9, 2023 2:34:59 PM(UTC)

It slow me down to keep another page ie sci open.  

#17 Posted : Wednesday, August 9, 2023 6:28:47 PM(UTC)
I agree with everyone saying the store cupboard ingredients isn't useful since not everyone has the same ingredients in stock all the time... I don't buy milk or onions unless I need them for a recipe, for example. It would be more useful to be able to see exactly what ingredients are in the recipe and easier to index too.
#18 Posted : Thursday, August 10, 2023 12:16:26 AM(UTC)

in agreement with abandoning SCIs ;-)  - however it  would, no doubt,  increase the costs of professional indexing ... consistency is an issue. Given the  automated process brings in all ingredients, and the intent is "one day" to have a useful grocery shopping lis,t then perhaps that cost is a necessary "burden".

#19 Posted : Friday, August 11, 2023 12:06:48 PM(UTC)

Websites are not static things and change is inevitable. I think after 11 years it is time to abandon SCI for member indexed books. It will not only make Sydney's PR work at lot easier, but it will also encourage more members to try their hand at indexing. The rules for SCI are confusing when you first begin indexing, and I'm sure many have tried and abandoned the effort. Even though I have many years of indexing experience (I've been member indexing since it was first introduced!), I still have to refer to the SCI chart once in a while. If we can keep member indexing as simple as possible we can have many more indexed books on the website. And that is a very good thing for everyone. 

#3 Posted : Sunday, August 13, 2023 11:22:17 AM(UTC)

Originally Posted by: Shelmar Go to Quoted Post

Drom John posted some data about Drom John's past indexing.


Now under my own name with a new Free account.


While I've been cooking actively since 1974, before LibraryThing, my recipe reviews were glossed in the cookbook/magazine margins. While I started reviewing books on LT 10 March 2007, I didn't get to cookbooks until 5 August 2007. In 2009 Jane noticed my reviews and invited us to EYB. But we declined at that time because though EYB was a good idea, we were not impressed enough to spend 2009 recession dollars. There weren't enough recipes that were indexed in our cookbooks.  In August 2019 Shelmar read an online article referencing EYB and we took another look and decided EYB was worthy. Even then, 46% of our titles weren't on EYB, and 51% of those that were on EYB were not indexed. After creating Shelmar's bookshelf, my next job was to improve the number of recipes available to Shelmar.


I started indexing September 2019. I now choose every other item with my queue starting with the cookbook review on LT on 5 August 2007. Of my 16 choices, the pamphlet/book submitted to Sydney was reviewed on LT on 12 November 2007. My queue is getting longer.


Shelmar chooses every other, with themes such as favorite restaurants, favorite authors, and vegetarian. Shelmar's last indexed choice was "why is such a beautiful book by a famous author not indexed?"


I've indexed 30 items (26 books, 4 magazines) plus the pamphlet/book submitted to Sydney.


6750 recipes (least 9, mean 225, most 1189)


2557 members holding (least 2, mean 85, most 297)


580,287 recipes*members (least 63, mean 19,178, most 114,560)


Of the 6 items that Shelmar was the sole holder when indexed, they now have 2,2,2,4,7,8 members.


3 had ISBNs. 3 were manually added by EYB so that I could index. Those three now have 2, 7, and 8 members; a magazine issue, a store brochure, and another magazine issue). That's 7 members holding an indexed store brochure. [Nowadays that store brochure could have been added by me as a member.]


IOW, index anything you want. Every choice is a good one. (Except that a first timer should choose something small.)

#20 Posted : Sunday, August 13, 2023 6:39:29 PM(UTC)

Hi folks - my "member indexing" started way back in 2011  .. I'd heard about EYB at a food & wine festival here in Aus, and after adding my books set a goal to get all of my books indexed .. still not achieved. Based on EYB's count, and excluding CKBK books, I apparently now have 512 books, 462 of which are indexed, and of that 161 are member indexed (I created bookmarks for "member indexed" and "indexed by me" just for fun!). I've Member-indexed 149 of those 161 member-indexed books. So an average of one a month across my membership... I enjoy rediscivering those books that have lingered on their shelf...and also enjoy the socio-cultural aspects of cooking through the  decades!!  One of the first "big efforts" was the Reader's Digest Cookery Year: my all time favourite book. When I offered to MI it there were (1 think) around 70 members with it on their shelf, now it sits at 394 (its not a CKBK linked book). I really do not envy Sydney's job: she's wonderful! Thank you to all other member indexers. Drom John your stats keeping is amazing! As an aside I'd love to be able to search all my bookshelves by multiple bookmarks (both EYB defined and those I've created) .. not sure I've worked out how to do that yet!! 

#21 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2023 5:44:18 AM(UTC)
I have indexed a fair amount of books now - I agree with others' comments that the store-cupboard ingredients don't really make sense, because people keep different staples at home, and the amounts are a bit arbitrary.

However, then I wonder how all of the store cupboard ingredients would be added to all of the existing recipes. That seems impossible. Or maybe it is impossible and we just start fresh with adding the sci from a given point forward?
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