Forum

Has anyone found a way to browse the ingredient list?

mjes - the ingredient list has almost 36,000 entries so it isn't possible to browse it. Enter any word and you should see suggestions to match it. If you cannot find what you want, enter your request in Indexer Notes and we will add it for you.

That really doesn't work for me but I'll find ways around it. I would have expected the list to be considerably longer given my list in Master Cook.

Out of interest, how many different ingredients are in your Master Cook list? Our ingredients database is based on the 7,000 cookbooks (for cuisines all over the world) and 3,000 magazines we have indexed - a total of almost 1.5 million recipes. We are still adding new ingredients though they now tend to be specific products that an author has specified, such as soy sauce caramel sauce or Doomstone cheese and more obscure ingredients such as Abzorbit or frozen moules marinière.

I'll have to get back to you after I run a count again. I'll admit I have some obscure natural ingredients as I created a cookbook of one recipe from each country in the world for an autistic nephew who loves maps and is picky about food. But as an example of "missing ingredients" see http://library.cmu.ac.th...lannafood.php?id_food=19 using https://en.wikipedia.org.../List_of_leaf_vegetables to translate into English names ...

One thing to keep in mind about EYB ingredients is that we don't create ingredients "on spec" at this point in our development. Adding new ingredients can be very time-consuming, especially when it involves extensive research into alternate names for vegetables, fruits, etc., in various languages/cuisines, so we'd only create a new ingredient or variation when a recipe calls for something we don't have yet in the Ingredients database. 

mjes - we don't add ingredients to the list just because they exist somewhere in the world in some language. We add them because they are required in a recipe that is indexed on the site. If an indexer comes across an ingredient that they cannot find in our database they note it in the Indexer Comments box and we add it to the recipe and the database. Our database is not intended to be a reference resource of every ingredient in the world.

Originally Posted by: Jane

mjes - we don't add ingredients to the list just because they exist somewhere in the world in some language. We add them because they are required in a recipe that is indexed on the site.

Yes, I understand. But I've been a bit surprised at some of the issues I've found in cookbooks that are indexed by EYB. I will admit that I've been looking at items that I know to be susceptible to problems such as masa harina / masa harina tamal / masarepa; alligator pepper / grains of paradise ... but I've also been caught by surprise by tsampa / barley. As a new member and a retiree from IT, I've been exploring the strengths and weakness of this application. I am generally very pleased and enjoyed showing it off to my son this evening.

Originally Posted by: Jane

Out of interest, how many different ingredients are in your Master Cook list?

It turns out it is not easy to compare in that Master Cook includes some prep in their list e.g. "diced carrots" and some things are particular brands e.g. World Spice Merchants' Cape Town masala curry. But I have recipes using slightly over 40,000 ingredients.

I sympathisze with the urge to be able to browse the entire ingredient list.  As an indexer, I've felt it particularly strongly when the limitations of EYB's drop-down menu make it impossible to browse all the available choices  (e.g., type a space plus 'sausages': the results after 'pinkel sausages' are inaccessible.)  This could be solved by making the drop-downs twice as long or so, but that probably has its own costs.  Still: frustrating.

Originally Posted by: ellabee

I sympathisze with the urge to be able to browse the entire ingredient list.  As an indexer, I've felt it particularly strongly when the limitations of EYB's drop-down menu make it impossible to browse all the available choices  (e.g., type a space plus 'sausages': the results after 'pinkel sausages' are inaccessible.)  This could be solved by making the drop-downs twice as long or so, but that probably has its own costs.  Still: frustrating.

I've found a speedy work around for indexing that has allowed me to see a little more deeply into the ingredient listings (but still just the 30 at a time)and that is just keying in the last few letters of the ingredient I'm looking to add .. so, for example, spring onions .. I key in "ng on".. using this process has shown up a lot more ingredients ..

Thanks, debkellie.  Worth a try when I next face the issue. But I'm afraid it wouldn't help in the zillion-kinds-of-sausages case, though -- or maybe I'm just not seeing how?

It occurs to me that if allowing the ingredient dropdowns to be larger is problematic, a programming workaround would be for the ingredient dropdown menu to include a 'See next 30' button for cases where a search like '{space} sausages' produces more than 30 results. 

[quote=ellabee;12280]

Thanks, debkellie.  Worth a try when I next face the issue. But I'm afraid it wouldn't help in the zillion-kinds-of-sausages case, though -- or maybe I'm just not seeing how?

Key in the last few letters of type of sausage eg Italian sausages.. key in "ian saus" and you get 30 odd variants... wind that up to "ian sausage" and a different offering arrives, wind up to "ian sausage <space>" and a reduced and different offering arrives! Try it in a book you're indexing and see what I mean.. I tried to add screen shots but the message was too big for the forum..

Some comments regarding the ingredients list as I index Wartime Recipes:

1. Is it useful for me to point out duplicate entries or should I assume EYB can scan for them?

2. Is it useful for me to point out erroneous pairings of ingredients or should I assume EYB has them adequately identified?

3. Is it useful for me to show how I wish the ingredient list worked while expecting no change? Well, I will anyway :-)

Things I find annoying that could be fixed by changing how ingredients are entered without any change to processing logic or ingredient links.

• Because ingredients are listed in the plural, an ingredient may need to be typed in its entirety before it appears in the drop-down list of 30 e.g. fig. This would be avoided by having a record that equated the plural to the singular i.e.
  fig [figs]


• Because they appear in (computer) alphabetic order, it requires scrolling and often extra typing to find dried, frozen and canned forms. This could be avoided by having these records equated to a standard form of ingredient, process i.e.
  peaches, canned [canned peaches]
  peaches, dried [dried peaches]
  peaches, frozen [frozen peaches]
  peaches, pickled [pickled peaches]
  peaches, spiced [spiced peaches]


• Closely related to this is that the fresh form of an herb is often missing e.g. try to find "fresh dill" or "dill, fresh [fresh dill]". I have entered these as "dill" rather than requesting a new ingredient because that appeared to be the custom. Of course I do an obligatory cringe each time.


• Some items never appear in the ingredient list in their most common form e.g. try to find "cinnamon" - one has to go to "cinnamon bark" or "ground cinnamon" or "cinnamon stick". This makes it more difficult to comfortable you've seen all the current possibilities before requesting a new ingredient. It would be useful to require that ingredients always have an unqualified record i.e.
  cinnamon

Yes, there is another annoyance - the fact that the results of recipes e.g. fig and fennel paste ... fig bread can force significant scrolling before one gets to fig leaves but for this I have no simple suggestion.

mjes: Per the indexing guidelines, herbs with no modifier are assumed to be fresh, with one big exception.

From the Chocolate, citrus, herbs & spices section:  :: For most herb ingredient names, the “default” format is the fresh herb – basil, cilantro, parsley, dill, etc.  The dried version of each herb is usually available as a separate indexable ingredient.  Index whichever version is called for, but if fresh vs. dried is not specified in the recipe, choose the default/unspecified version.  
NOTE: One exception is oregano, which in EYB refers to the more common dried herb, with fresh oregano available as a separately indexable ingredient. ::

To limit annoyance, do read and re-read the indexing guidelines, and begin to internalize the shortcuts list.   To familiarize yourself with defaults, it may help to review the ingredient lists for an indexed books similar to the one you're starting in with (well, scratch that; there aren't many similar). Most ingredients and indexing guidelines aren't going to be re-organized any time soon, because the changes would affect so many recipes.

Originally Posted by: ellabee

NOTE: One exception is oregano, which in EYB refers to the more common dried herb, with fresh oregano available as a separately indexable ingredient.

The problem is that in my experience, oregano is not an exception. But what is assumed by cookbooks to be fresh is ethnically and geographically determined.

Originally Posted by: ellabee

 Most ingredients and indexing guidelines aren't going to be re-organized any time soon, because the changes would affect so many recipes.

I intended to make it clear in my post that I did not expect any changes. However, having spent my entire working life in IT, I did carefully select my comments to suggestions that could be implemented without disruption to recipes already indexed. My intent was merely to plant seeds and sit back and wait for germination. Eventual change will occur because of technological changes, a critical mass in the weaknesses of the current method, or need to maintain a competitive edge.

Originally Posted by: Cati

48 pages in Wartime Recipes mjes. I don't imagine you will need to index butter or eggs. They will be below the amounts requiring indexing. Will look forward to seeing what type of recipes are there.

You're right that butter and eggs are sorely lacking - and eggs are often reconstituted. But the English recipes are not as bad as the Finnish ones that use ground bark as "flour".